The Conjuring 4 (The Smurls) Part 2 | The True Story of the Warrens' Paranormal Case | Ep #40

0:01 Are you kidding me? Diabolical insemination. Ed would have loved to have said that. He would have loved to have said those words. It's crazy to me that he didn't. What a missed opportunity. God, I'm so disappointed in you, Ed. Come on. Welcome stranger to Madam Strange Ways, where I, Madam Strange Ways occasionally break up my true strange story narrations with deep dives about strange topics like Ed and Lorraine Warren's paranormal case files. This is the second and final episode of the Smurl family haunting the subject of the latest Conjuring movie, The Conjuring Last Rites.

0:42 In the first episode, I read you a short story recounting many of the alleged demonic encounters that the Smurl family endured, and I gave you my thoughts so far. So if you haven't listened to the first episode, I hereby banish you until you have. I'll go back to our usual format of reading your true strange stories in the next episode, but for now I sense it's about to rain Hellcats and Hell Hounds outside, so you know what that means. On to our strange and allegedly, possibly questionably true story here on Madam Strange Ways. Quick content warning before we get started that this episode includes a perhaps gratuitous amount of discussion about demon sexual assault, so just FYI, listen with care. Welcome to Part 2 of the Smurl Family Haunting, AKA the true story behind the latest Conjuring film, The Conjuring Last Rites.

2:03 So if you haven't listened to the first episode in the series, you're going to have to go back and listen to that. Sorry, it's necessary reading because otherwise I'll be making references to stuff that you have no idea what I'm talking about. So just as a as a quick nutshell reminder, what we were talking about last time was the Smurl family and the haunting that allegedly happened to them as described in the book written by both Janet and Jack Smurl and Lorraine and Ed Warren and also the the actual author of the book, Robert Curran called the Haunted One Family's Nightmare. Now the year is 1986, which means that not only are we smack dab right in the middle of the Satanic Panic, which is the moral panic that happened in the 80s and 90s specifically surrounding Satan, Satan, Satan, Satan.

2:55 And not only that, but a ton of horror and classic slasher films have come out in the 80s and the late 70s leading up to all of the events that happened allergically to the Smurl family. Let's just just remember quick, Cliff's notes, the Smurl family, Janet and Jack, they lived in a duplex with their four daughters. On one side of the duplex and then on the other side of the wall were Jack's parents, John and Mary Smurl. So they all lived in this little duplex in West Pittston, PA, about 25 minutes away from Scranton. Yes, that's Scranton, and there were a lot of crazy paranormal claims that they make up, but the largest claim that they make that I have no doubt will be completely left out of the movie. The biggest paranormal claim that they make is that not only was Jack Smurl sexually assaulted by demons, Janet Smurl, his wife, was also assaulted by demons so sexually, to be clear, I just cannot imagine that they're going to include even a shred of any of that in the movie, which is interesting because what do you mean? What do you mean?

4:12 I thought it was a true story. Is it? It's based on a true story. Why would you leave out that really important detail if it's a true story? Anyway, moving on. Like I said in the first episode, just to be clear, sexual assault, sexual assault's not funny. Which is why it's so messed up that the Smurls and the Warrens and Robert Curran treated it the way that they did, used it as a plot device in order to sell more books and more movies. And in the case of the book, it is written borderline pornographically as in zero respect. 0 respect given to sexual assault. It's crazy to the victim, which is Janet and Jack.

4:52 Yeah, 0 respect there. So anyway, hate that, but they talk about it, they put it in the book. So you know what, we are going to talk about it and that is where we are picking up here on Part 2 of the Smurls we are picking up. Right where I know that you want to be and that is jumping again face first into. The succubus and the incubus now right off the bat, what is a succubus what is an incubus one of them is a band. I know that what they really are A succubus is a female demon who sexually assaults men, human men in their sleep, and an incubus is a male demon who sexually. Assaults.

5:39 Human women in their sleep OK, we're starting This is great I think generally when you hear the. Descriptions. It's like, you know, demon women who have sex with men. But you know, I think we got to call spade a spade here. So unfortunately, this is, you know what, like I said, I didn't make this bed. The Smurls and the Warrens made this bed. I am simply having to deal with the bed that they made. I am just not letting them get. I am not letting people forget that they made this bed. This is what I'm saying. We're talking about it. So before I read you this excerpt from the book The Haunted to show you just how strange, strangely specific, and detailed the sexual encounter with the demons are, this specific excerpt reads like smut. So trigger warning.

6:28 Trigger warning for NSFW content. Just I didn't. Again, I didn't write it. I didn't write it. And I cannot stress to you enough that this is verbatim what is written in the book The Haunted, written by as a reminder, the Warrens, the Smurls and Robert Curran. Now, Robert Curran was a journalist and he actually ended up doing the writing of the book. He wrote the book. OK. And and by the way, this part of the story that you're about to hear, this is not the first encounter with the succubus that Jack has. If you'll remember, Jack had two encounters with different succubi in the book, but he also said that he had a dozen different encounters with the demon or multiple demons.

7:15 Unclear, but this is just This is the second one from the book. This is This is not the scary old hag whose body is rotting and it just seems like she's taken directly from the movie The Shining. Instead, this is a different, sexier succubus. I assume that this was written entirely by Robert Curran based off of an interview with Jack, meaning he heard Jack talking about his encounter. And I just really wish I could have been a family on that wall. Anyway, we're going to here's here's the excerpt. Remember verbatim, The Haunted Book describes the sexual assault of Jack Smurl. As such, the time was dawn.

8:00 A round red summer sun was pushing up past clouds, already hazy with pollutants, casting an almost bloody glow over the bedroom in which Janet and Jack Smurl slept. And then, abruptly, Jack was awake. A voluptuous young woman was on top of Jack, riding him in the position of sexual domination Des M. Despite her beauty and the pleasure she was obviously enjoying, her eyes remained A shocking and sickly neon green. Next to him, Janet slept. Jack knew that she was in a deep psychic sleep. Despite his prayers, the succubus would not be contained. Still in the form of a beautiful young woman whose alabaster nakedness was only complimented by the reddish glow of the rising sun, The succubus plundered Jack sexually, sinking down and then moving up on him several times. I am not making this up, and we're not done. He exhorted the demon to be gone, but he found that he was unable to move or speak, and the succubus continued mounting him once more, hair flying wildly, neon green eyes glowing larger and more lurid as its mouth ran with the drool of satisfaction. There is 0% chance that anyone Jack is not. Jack is not, do you see?

9:19 What I'm saying, Jack is not giving, sorry, he's not giving anyone this amount of satisfaction. Moving on. The curious thing was that for all the movement and the succubus put on a dazzling show full of tricks, Jack felt no sexual sensation at all. He lay there and simply watched the demon perform, and then it was over 1 moment. He had been the pawn of Satan himself, and now he lay covered with the gelatinous sticky mess, the same stuff the night hag had left on him when it had reached a climax during his first attack. I I read that this I how why? Who, Who, when, where, why?

10:03 Why? Why did this happen? Why is this how we described this scene? There's I so many, I have so many things. Remember in the story, which you may have listened to in the last episode, you must have. If you're listening to this and you didn't listen to the last episode, shame, shame on you. But the story that I read in the beginning of the first episode where I specifically said she mounted him in the dominant position, that is verbatim. I said that because it's such a weird way to say that. I mean, I guess it's not wrong, it's just weird. It's weird. This is weird. This is weird. And OK, before we move on, I have to say I think we all know what the mysterious, gelatinous, sticky mess left on him was.

10:45 It's so strange. The book treats it like a mystery. The book is like, it's stinky and weird and he doesn't know what it is. And he washed it off. He scrubbed himself raw. And I'm like buddy, OK, OK, Anyway this? Does not sound like the point of view of someone who's being sexually assaulted. I mean, it does say that Jack is like, oh, I didn't feel any sexual sensation at all. And, you know, it was not good. And that's fine. But this is not the point of view of someone who's not enjoying it. Put on a show, the succubus. Put on a dazzling show full of tricks with her alabaster nakedness and her voluptuous, beautiful young body.

11:28 Are you kidding? Me like Robert Curran the the the author, Was he writing this one handed? I ask you like was this? Literal testimony from Jack Smirrell. Or is this dramatized by Robert Curran or Ed? I mean if it was dramatized by Ed and told to Robert Curran to really, you know, make it sexy maybe, I don't know. I just feels like Curran, the author, feels like he was having a really good time writing this. Am I wrong? Who would write that? And be and he's a journalist. He was a journalist. I'm telling you, somebody had a fetish for femdom at a minimum, minimum. I mean, it really feels like Curran was like he was just really into it.

12:19 And it feels like he was really into it, which is really fucked up because if Jack really believed this happened to him, if Jack really believed that he was being sexually assaulted by demons over a dozen times. And then he tells the story to be written in a book telling his true story and this is how it's written. That's so disrespectful. I mean like current turned this into softcore porn. This is like book talk. Book talk needs to know this exists. I mean honestly, there's only like 2 scenes that are. There's only two scenes that get pretty no. Well, hold on, hold on, actually. Because if you'll remember, Jack is not the only one. Also, his wife also experiences some demonic sexual assault. So you know what?

13:03 Let's just let's just see. Let's how did how did they treat that? Did they treat that with any more respect? Let's find out. Here is the excerpt of one of Janet's assaults at the hands of the incubus. Her fears about the incubus were realized the next night. Oh, yeah. Because right before this happened on like the page before or something, she saw a shadowy figure, the shadowy male demon figure with the Cape, a cloak. OK, she saw the figure in the bathroom at night when she had gotten up to go get a glass of water or something, and she saw it, and it saw her. He saw her, and when it turned around and saw her, it was like staring at her. And she, it said like she knew what it wanted from her. And she found herself wishing that she wasn't so exposed in her nightgown and that she had been wearing something more substantial so that it couldn't see her because she knew what it wanted.

13:54 What? OK, anyway, that's what she's talking about. So her fears about the incubus were realized the next night when Janet, relaxing next to Jack on their bed, felt an invisible hand move up her body. Jack, seeing that his wife was being attacked, grabbed the holy water from the night stand. Because remember I said last time, they keep holy water all over the house. They keep it in aspirin bottles. It's weird. Grabbed the holy water from the night stand after pulling the covers off Janet. He said in a commanding voice. In the name of Jesus Christ, I order you to leave. Then Janet picked up the same prayer. In the name of Jesus Christ, I order you to leave. The unseen hands continue to violate her, but as they split, as they sprayed holy water and uttered the words of the special prayer, Janet eventually felt the hands withdraw her body her own again. Finally, she collapsed and Jack's strong and protective embrace.

14:51 This is written like smut. I mean, it's not good smut, but it's. Smut this. This is written like bad smut. It's supposed to be a true story. And where is this in the movie? Guys? The movie has come out. Now that this episode's out and the movie is out. Should be, I think so. Was the scene were these scenes in the movie? I think not. So the way I see it, the succubus incubus situation in so far as it's written in the Smurls book, it can go one of a few ways. So either Ed Warren one either Ed Warren had a fascination slash hard on for succubi and incubi and pressured Robert Curran to write about it, or two Robert Curran had a fascination slash hard on for succubi and incubi that had perhaps only been awakened while interviewing the family because. Says #3 Jack Smirrel was the one who brought up the succubi taking advantage of him.

15:55 Or #4 Jack Smirrel absorbed. Some of the horror based succubus media that we talked about in episode 1 and conflated it with reality or the imagery informed hallucinations that he had due to his hydrocephalus, which we also talked about in the first episode being the quote UN quote water on the brain which causes delusions and hallucinations. So if we're going by Occam's razor, which is, you know, that the the solution with the fewest assumptions is generally true. Knowing the Warrens as we now do, I would say that it was probably Ed Warren having a kink for succubi and incubi.

16:40 I think that seems like the most likely. But personally, I'm kind of still in the Jack is hallucinating and having delusions camp. But you know, two things can be. True at once. But these weirdos, These particular weirdos. And by weirdos I specifically mean Ed Warren. And now I'm saying Robert Curran. Honestly, these weirdos are far from the first humans to think about sex with demons. Like a lot. Humans have been thinking about and writing about sex with demons since ancient Mesopotamia. Seriously. Probably even before then. This is just as as far back as we know it goes. So here's a fun fact. Is it fun?

17:20 Maybe it's not fun, but here's a fact for sure about succubi and incubi. So succubi. Are meant to steal men's semen, right? Duh. Everybody. Knows that, but unlike the witches and what we do in the shadows, they aren't using using the stolen semen for skin care. No, no no. The intent of a succubi stealing men's semen is to use it to impregnate a human woman. But you may be asking yourself, how the hell would that work? Or more likely, you're probably asking yourself why the hell are we talking about this in such detail? But here we are again. I'm not the reason we're here. OK? You can thank Ed Warren for this. Succubi are said to be able to shape shift into incubi, which are the male demons who are meant to impregnate human women. Do you see where this is going?

18:14 You know what? I hope that you don't. I hope that your brain does not work in such a way that you don't see where this is going. But if it does work in a way where you know where this is going, you know what? You need to follow me, follow the podcast, follow me on social media. Let's be friends, because listen. There, I really can't stress enough, there is a lot of ancient texts that discuss in great detail exactly how succubi and incubi procreate. Because if you didn't know, demons cannot create life on their own because only God can create life, right? So obviously, duh, demons can't create life. Which means they need to steal men's semen and use it to impregnate unsuspecting women in the night by.

19:01 Kind of let you guess by first having sex with a man as a succubus stealing his seed, then shape shifting into an incubus which is a male demon, and then having sex with sexually assaulting a human woman and impregnating her with the stolen seed in the form of an incubus. Again. Look. I I didn't think. I didn't think I'd be here either. OK, but we're here. We're here now. So when I. Say that somebody in the small case is preoccupied with the concept of being seduced or sexually assaulted by a succubus.

19:43 Obviously, these people are just carrying the torch of our ancestors who are also just a little too interested in the sex lives of demons. Ancestors like the authors of the Malleus Maleficarum or the Hammer of Witches, otherwise known as the Witch Hunter's Manual written by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Springer. They also wrote about the sex lives of demons. Or ancestors like Pope Innocent the 8th, Everyone's favorite Pope. Everyone knows that Pope, right? Pope Innocent the 8th? Sure. Ancestors like Saint Augustine of Hippo, whoever that is. That St. that St.

20:24 A Pope and a St. are also writing about how demons have sex. I'm really you can Fact Check me. Please Fact Check me. Finally, ancestors like King James. Yes, that King James. Yep, he also wrote a lot about demon sex. King James of the Bible fame. King James the Scott who haunted women for sport. Oh, did I say women? I meant witches. Actually, I did mean women. The Scott who haunted women for sport during the witch trials. So yeah, that King James, seriously. Seriously. All of these people wrote. A lot of stuff.

21:06 And King James in particular wrote a very long three-part demon fanfic called Demonology that was used during said witch hunts. So interesting. Also, less fun fact, actually kind of more fun fact, babies that were born from incubus impregnation were called Cambians. A sort of demon spawn who I'm not making this up again I can't stress this enough. A sort of demon spawn who are super hot and very capable and also very evil. Which I mean, I feel like that's just my type. That's just my type right there.

21:50 Super hot, capable, very evil. What can I say? What can I say? So the following. Historical figures are suggested to be incubus spawn, and they are suggested as they are suggested to be incubus spawn by Ludovico Maria Sinastri in the 1600s. Nailed it. So these people are supposed to be cambions or cambions I don't speak Latin. These people are supposed to be incubus, demon spawn, Romulus and Remus of Rome fame. Alexander the Great, which we touched. On in the Demon in the Woods episode. Which seems like a stretch, but please go back and listen. Caesar Augustus.

22:37 It doesn't list all of the Caesar's, but Caesar Augustus is specifically mentioned as being demon spawn. And also Merlin. Uh huh. Yeah, that Merlin. So obviously the concept of. Incubus and incubi and succubi goes back a really long time. So incubus the word comes from the Latin incubare, which means to lie or weigh upon. But also the Latin word incubus. Interesting. Which can just mean nightmare, which is likely where the concept of an incubus and succubus even came from sleep paralysis and and this is just yet another term I was just not expecting to ever say on the show. Nocturnal emissions.

23:24 You know, here we are, here we are right? So did Jack Smerl maybe just have a series of sleep paralysis went dreams? I it's not fun for me to say it's not, so I don't want to think about it either, but I'm thinking about it. So now you're thinking about it. Sorry again, blame Ed Warren, blame Ed, right? Anyway, so did Jax Merl really just have a series of sleep paralysis wet dreams? On a serious note though, honestly, honestly, it wouldn't make the situation any less terrifying for him if they weren't actually demons than if they were just sleep paralysis. Because if you haven't had sleep paralysis it is really terrifying.

24:06 And if you're super Catholic and you believe in demons, then guess what, you you're not going to think that oh it's just sleep paralysis, everybody has sleep paralysis. No, nobody knew about this back then. Not nobody. Most people did not know about sleep paralysis back in 1986. Normies did not know. So it would be terrifying to him. So again, This is why I keep saying that I kind of feel like Jack was having experiences, it's just that they weren't. Necessarily real experiences, but also This is why I keep saying that it's messed up that Ed Warren and Robert Curran thought it was OK to kind of pornographize his experiences.

24:50 Is that a word? It is now. So the case that the Warrens investigated right after the Smurls like I have mentioned happens to be the Snedeker family of the Haunting of Connecticut fame right? And like I said, that married couple also encountered demonic sexual assault which I still think is like interesting. I am curious if it was Ed or Jack Smurl who mentioned it first. Like did did Jack Smurl tell him about his sleep paralysis dreams and Ed was like. Oh, that's a good idea. Oh, this is a good idea. This is a great idea. This is going to sell. Sex sells. Let's just put sex in the situation. It's going to sell.

25:30 You know, is that what he was thinking? And then he was like, OK, didn't quite work out. It didn't quite work out with the smorrel. So I'm going to try it again with these Snedekers. They're they're game, you know? Is that what was happening or were the families? Did they just have demon sex on the brain? I don't know, we'll never know. Either way, the Warrens never brought up demonic sexual assault ever again after the SNET occurs. Probably because it was a terrible fucking idea. Like I said, even if humans have been obsessed with demonic sexual assault for centuries, it's not an excuse. And that is just a perfect example of fear mongering, which I've said before, Fear is actually what Ed and Lorraine Warren actually peddled. It wasn't help.

26:13 It wasn't, you know, relief for these poor families. No, no, no. They sold fear. They are fear mongers. And like I've said, I'm telling you like. Seriously, Ed had a real knack for captivating and keeping people's attention and stocking their fears especially. He was so good at it. I mean, even down to the words that he uses and even the confidence in which he says said words like demon infestation, no one wants to be infested with anything. I mean, it sounds like a nightmare on its own. Just hearing the word infestation gives me like I don't like it gives me the vapours. You know, you might say I don't like it. I don't want an infestation of anything, and I certainly don't want a demon infestation. Now it's worse.

26:58 Now it's worse because a demon infestation can bring other infestations, namely of the pest variety. You got swarms of flies you know you have. OK, What other bugs? I don't know. Probably more bugs. I don't want to talk about it. I hate it. It's disgusting. Pig. You know what? It would be like a pig infestation because of how obsessed they are with pigs and demons. Anyway, Infestation is only the second step of Ed Warren's made-up demon lore, because the more research I do, the more clear it becomes that Ed created his own alternate universe fanfic demon mechanics and and all the stuff that worked best for him made it into the lore. And the stuff that didn't or that he forgot or that wasn't convenient for him did not make it into the lore. So by the time of the Smurl's Haunting, here are the stages of demon possession according to Ed Warren in his own little universe.

27:53 Step one. Encroachment, Step 2. Infestation. Step 3. Oppression, Step 4. Possession. Step 5. Death. The worst step? And by the way, let me just, OK, quick, quick note, quick. It's a heavy note, but I'm going to, you know what? I'm going to say it. People die in exorcisms not because of demons. They die during exorcisms entirely due to the so-called exorcist's neglect and abuse. Of the allegedly possessed. Person, they're not possessed and the exorcist is not performing an exorcism. OK, if the devil exists and is trying to kill people via possession, he's making the religious folks do the actual killing.

28:39 My, my, my research shows that there isn't a well defined or publicly available list of possession stages. And just a reminder, layman, which includes Ed Warren layman could not perform exorcisms. You can't perform an exorcism if you're a layman. I'm a layman. I'm a laywoman. I can't perform an exorcism and neither could Ed. Anyway, here's what I found from Father Gabriel Lamourth, who is really not a reliable source considering that he claimed to have done 160,000 exorcisms in his life, which is. It's just not true. It's genuinely belong beyond the pale.

29:21 But mind you, Father Amorth also made it into Hollywood and had his own books and was a recurring guest on Coast to Coast AM with George Nori. And Father Amorth was also quoted as saying practicing yoga is satanic. It leads to evil, just like reading Harry Potter. So maybe take this with a grain of salt, but this actual priests stages of possession are #1 diabolical infestation #2 diabolical obsession #3 diabolical oppression #4 diabolical possession. Death is not a stage of possession in here. And just to give you an just to remind you, Ed's started with encroachment.

30:04 That's not in this guy's list. He's got infestation neck, which is this guy's number one. And Ed does not have obsession, but he does have oppression. So they're not the same. You know, I don't think I feel like this is not a science or an art, honestly. Anyway, I think Ed picked up on the lingo by lurking around priests long enough. And kind of latched onto the words infestation and oppression because they sound bad. And I don't know, they just sound bad. I think he picked up that those make people feel a certain way. But honestly, I don't know why. Why didn't Ed use the word diabolical in front of his stages? Why didn't he use that in this instance? It just means like demon, like demonic, right? But like, why didn't he use the term diabolical? That's such a good word.

30:56 That's such a good word, and it gives. Again, a gravitas to these stages and it sounds really cool. It sounds very metal. It's crazy to me that he didn't use the words diabolical. I just have to guess maybe he just had a hard time spelling diabolical compared to demonic. There's just fewer letters in demonic. I don't know. But also, by the way, in my research regarding the incubus and incubi and succubi, I discovered that there is an official term for incubi impregnating human women and it is called diabolical insemination. And again, I ask you, why didn't Ed latch onto this?

31:38 Are you? Kidding me? Diabolical insemination. Ed would have loved to have said that. He would have loved to have said those words. It's crazy to me that he didn't. What a missed opportunity. Oh, God, I'm so disappointed in you, Ed. Come on. He also talks a lot though about psychic sleeps in this case, which is a term that I think started with the Warrens, specifically Ed. I think he really made it up. For his own lore, because in my research there is such a thing as psychic sleep, but it's like a Yogi thing. It's a yoga thing, which is you heard from father and N is evil, just like Harry Potter. I think he just made-up psychic sleep. And in yoga, it just means you're, like, meditating really hard. So you're kind of like, meditationally asleep.

32:20 That's what psychic sleep means in yoga. I think he just made the term up, and it's just an excuse. It's like psychic sleep. OK, Reminder, psychic sleep is just how demons make your partner or family impossible to wake up when you're experiencing something paranormally terrifying. You know, like, ostensibly as a way to drive a wedge between you and your family because you have no proof of what happened. And they didn't witness it because they were put into a deep psychic sleep. OK, which seemed convenient to me. Holy water also plays plays a big part in this real story, as I've mentioned, at least in the books. TBD on the movie because the family takes 2 just keeping holy water on hand like literally 24/7. Like it's really crazy. I think I mentioned this out of order, but genuinely, Janet Smirrel keeps holy water and aspirin bottles to keep handy is what she says in the book, which is such a weird container. But like, I don't know.

33:10 Go off, Queen. Sure. Remember in the first episode of the story that I told where Janet was recording the knocks with the demon, where she was communicating knock once for yes, knock twice for no, or whatever it was she was recording it. In the book, it specifically states that she went back and checked that the tape actually recorded. She played it back and she was so pleased to hear that there really was evidence on the tape. She had successfully recorded her conversation with the demon, regardless of the fact that if it's just audio, someone could just be, she could just be knocking on the wall. Regardless of that fact, let's put that fact out of the that's not relevant.

33:51 The point is, is the book made a point to say that she captured evidence. It does not come back up in the book. And Ed Warren claims that he did have those audio tapes. In fact, he claimed that he had more audio tapes of knocking and rapping. And he actually included video. He he got video of like, dark shadows that belong to the demon. These are things that he says he had. OK, seriously, They go out of the way to say we have evidence. So where's the evidence, Ed? Where's the evidence? The Warrens never shy away from broadcasting evidence that they have, you know, like the the admittedly creepy but completely debunked photo of the the little demon boy in Amityville or OK, the audio recordings that Ed made in Enfield, which you can still listen to even today on YouTube.

34:43 He they share those. We have that. Evidence. I don't know that that's evidence. It's just recordings. The point is they share stuff with the public, Ed claimed. Even to 1 reporter who asked, hey, can I have the tapes? Where was the evidence that you said that? You literally just told me that you have. You told me to my face was out that there's evidence. So can we have the evidence? Ed tells this reporter. I gave it to someone, I don't remember who. And they're like, what do you mean? He's like, oh, I gave it to like, I gave it to like another channel. I gave it to another news station. I don't remember what the outlet was. Oh, OK, that's interesting that you can't remember, but OK. Then at another date on a on a later date, he claimed that he would eventually show the tapes.

35:32 He yes, he would eventually release the tapes, but only to the Vatican. Which means you would never be able to see them. It also implies that he has a connection to the Vatican, or that the Vatican gives a single flying fuck about him, which they don't. Interesting. But he wants you to think that he felt very, he really wanted to be included in like the inner circle of, you know, the Vatican and priests and etcetera. Now, I did say that we weren't going to address every single claim, even though it's really tempting to, but I do have to share this one quote from volume 11 of the Skeptical Enquirer in 1986 wherein they are interviewing the Smirrels neighbors. About the haunting. Which by the way, the neighbors that they interviewed, None, none, none of them were saying like the 26 or 28 or whatever people that Robert Curran said that he interviewed.

36:22 Like none of the people that the Skeptical Enquirer talked to said that they really witnessed anything paranormal. So anyway, one skeptical neighbor pointed to a squirrel in the tree in front of the smirrel's house and said there's your demon, which as you know, squirrels and I have an ongoing feud. So I totally agree. That's the demon, the squirrel, every squirrel. Little squirrels are demons. Squirrels are little demons. That's what I'm trying to say. A part of the book that actually made me laugh out loud and I think I couldn't keep a straight face. I tried three times. I could not keep a straight face as I was reading it in the story. So you probably picked up on that in the first episode. But a part of the book that made me literally laugh out loud, like genuinely belly laugh was when Ed was goading the demon to get a reaction out of it.

37:07 And and then it started. The demon starts writing with like ectoplasm or something on the mirror. And in the book, it's like it starts with spells out why? Oh, you. And I'm like, oh, what's it going to say? You need to leave, You got to go, you know, like, I don't know, I'm trying to think like what would a demon right in the mirror? You maybe your maybe it's going to say your soul is mine. You know, this is where my head is going in the split. 2nd but but before it says that the full message is suddenly appears and says you dirty bastard get out of here. Like what are you talking about? That's not that's not what a demon would say, right? Am I crazy?

37:49 Like, I know I'm not a demon and I don't know any demons personally, but I just really can't imagine that the demon would actually say, you dirty bastard, get out of here. Like what are you talking about? It's just so insane. Oh, man. OK, moving on. Nearing the end of August 1986, Paul Kurtz with the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, which is shortened to CSI Cop. CSI Cop. OK, this Committee for Scientific Investigation Cleansing the Paranormal, they called for a group of scientists to offer free psychiatric and psychological help to the Smurls, which I think is fair and also very kind of them.

38:34 However, the Smurls felt they needed no help, which I understand there's a stigma against. Psychiatric help and especially in the 80s, it's still around today, so you can only imagine it was a lot stronger back then. People go, I'm not crazy. No, no, no, no one's saying that you're. Crazy. It just means that maybe there's something else going on and we can help you, and then it'll be done and you won't have to worry about seeing all these ghosts and demons anymore. So here we go. Doctor Robert Gordon, a psychologist from Allentown, in a August 1986 Times Leader article said people often look at demonology to explain many tensions that they experience as individuals and within their families and they should consult mental health professionals that are not looking at them as sick or bad, but will help to alleviate their sufferings. So this is what I'm saying.

39:26 This is why you will always hear me saying here on the show or you'll even see me commenting on Reddit on on people's true true paranormal stories. You will see me commenting on threads that even if someone is hallucinating, that doesn't mean they're crazy. If someone is exeriencing exeriencing something that they think is aranormal, it doesn't mean you're crazy. Needing sychiatric help doesn't mean you're crazy. Like as a society we just have this weird knee jerk assumption, I don't know that there's like some inherently bad state of insanity that we might reach that we can never come back from, which with modern medicine and therapies, it's just really not true. We have modern medicine, we have therapy. Like you'll be fine. You're not crazy.

40:07 You're not forever crazy. You know, we also have a knee jerk reaction to being told that we might benefit from a trip to the psychologist or psychiatrist because again, it implies that we're crazy. So like we get defensive. So again, I can understand why the family might have been, you know, like I. Don't know about that. You think we're crazy? You think we're lying. OK. And that's assuming, very charitably, that no one in the family was intentionally misleading anyone else, and they all fully believed, which we'll get into in a moment. I do wish that the Smorrels had had taken it up and I wish that they hadn't taken such insult to the offer and that they had at the very least gotten Jack into a psychiatric assessment, you know, because he had that water in the brain. He had the hydrocephalus.

40:51 I just, I feel like there was something else going on, like with hallucinations and and delusions. But even if that was happening, that still doesn't mean that he was crazy, quote UN quote. I I will also always wonder. If it was the Smurls who turned away the offer of the psychiatric evaluation or if it was Ed Warren and Lorraine Warren telling them to turn it down. But what I can tell you right now with 100% certainty is that Ed would never have encouraged them to do it. He definitely would have encouraged them for sure. And there's not a chance, because if they're going to the psychiatrist, if they're going to psychologist, Ed's losing his cash cow, which is fucked up. So he would prefer that they stay on well than to get better. Gross, right?

41:38 So remember The Exorcist, the movie, which I never talk about ever. I've never once talked about The Exorcist. Do you remember The Exorcist? Remember Father Damien Karis? The Hot 1, not the old one. Well, he's not really a priest. And the actor, I should say the actor that plays Father Damien Karis, is not a priest. He's an actor. So then why would I be bringing up him? Why would I be bringing up that guy? Because oh, what's this is weird. Hold on a second. It looks like he visited the Smirrel House. It was in the papers. It was on the news. It was on the news that an actor who plays a priest visited the Smirrel House. For why?

42:26 For why? According to a sceptical Enquirer article in 1986, indeed, according to news accounts and several papers, Smerl has also met with Jason Miller, who played the part of the priest and the Exorcist. Miller, now living in Scranton, visited the Smerl house with his publicist, William Mcandrew shortly after the story broke. Huh, that's I wonder why? That's seems weird, doesn't it? Janet Smirrell said Miller met with the family for about an hour. She said he seemed very interested and knowledgeable. He made some suggestions about things we could try to do. She did not elaborate. What are you talking about? He is not a priest.

43:08 He plays one on TVI mean movies. Like what are you talking about? Why is he suggesting anything? But actually apparently even though he was an actor, people would chase him down in the streets and think that he was actually a real priest even though he just played one in the movies. Which is really weird. But honestly, this is just another example of a stenchion like I mentioned earlier where you're trying to give credence to the Smerls story by having someone that you associate with priests visit the. House. What? Still, guys, he's just an actor. He's not really a priest. This is crazy anyway, so then why was he really there?

43:48 Why was the priest actor really there? Oh, well, Huh. It seemed that Miller. Was actually interested in directing the movie based on the Smerls story. He was going to direct that film. That's why his publicist was there with him. Because otherwise why are you going anywhere with your publicist? A Wilkes Barre paper at the time, which like I said this was literally in the news. A Wilkes Barre paper at the time reported that this wasn't just any paranormal movie. This wasn't just any scary story movie. This movie would have A twist for it would feature the mini rapes of Jack Smurl by a demon that is a.

44:33 Quote. From a paper that is a quote from a paper. I just do you see? Do you see why I feel like we got to talk about this? Because it was everywhere. Everyone was talking. About it all the time. It's crazy. Anyway, the movie ended up being directed by someone else that made for TV movie. It was directed by someone else. I don't know who, but it wasn't Father Karis. And finally, we move on to the theories, at least as I see them. From what I can tell, it looks like there's kind of four basic theories here with, I mean you could say there's some sub bullets behind each one, but I'm just going to, I am not going to get into the nitty gritty of each one. I'm just going to list the four of them and then I will get into the nitty gritty.

45:16 I am saying this as much for your information as to keep me accountable to not go off the deep end as I'm talking about these. We're just going to go through the four of them. Here are my 4 theories. Number one theory #1 The Smurls were telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth number. 2 theory. 2 the. Children in the home were playing poltergeist, like in the Enfield Poltergeist case and countless other poltergeist cases, and the children happened to whip up the rest of the family into a frenzy, just like in all those other poltergeist cases. That's three number two.

45:57 Theory #3 Jack's water on the brain disease, which I think is hydrocephalus. Caused hallucinations and delusions and then also caused a shared psychosis state, which we'll get to in a SEC. But I do think it's important to take Jack Smurl's medical history into consideration when we're discussing the case and, and the veracity of the claims in the case. You can't, you can't ignore that fact. So #4 theory #4 the Smurls and the Warrens concocted the entire story from scratch, made from scratch for fame and fortune. OK, now we're going to get into kind of some thoughts on the theories.

46:38 Theory #1 truly paranormal question mark. The problem with theory #1 being that everything is true is that the Warrens are involved, which means that everything that the Smorls claim is brought into question. I'm sorry. That's just what if you associate with a scammer? Now I have to look at you with a a much more skeptical lens because the the Warrens are involved. So sorry, it's not. I'm not saying that the Smorls are necessarily bad people. I think in some way they were definitely being taken advantage of by the Warrens regardless of their motivations. But you just can't. Anyone that worked with Ed and Lorraine Warren, you have to just you have to question them.

47:21 Well, do you guys hear that? There's like a rattling in my wall. Oh no, it's it's the demon. So if you hear rattling, just no, it's a demon and we'll just keep moving because you're not supposed to interact with it, right? Hey, you know what? If it is a demon, knock once for no and twice for yes. I didn't say what knock 0 times was, but that's how many times it knocked. All right, moving on. OK, so they're basically saying, well, the swirls were suffering, so why shouldn't they get something out of it by, you know, getting a book deal or a movie deal like it It's they're owed that, you know? I don't know.

48:11 I don't know. I don't know how I feel about that argument. It just doesn't quite ring true for me. But assuming that there really was paranormal activity in the small home, and assuming that Ed and Lorraine witnessed some of it, then, yeah, Ed and Lorraine would be milking that small cash cow until it dried up. And then they would continue making money on it by talking about it and their little lectures that they charged people to attend. Oh, wait. They would do that regardless of whether they witnessed any actual paranormal activity. The paranormal activity, it's just kind of it's, it's, it's unnecessary, it's optional. They don't even need it. It's it's not needed for them to make money. OK theory #2 it's the kids fault. It's the kids who are wrong.

48:58 Like we discussed in the Enfield Poltergeist episode, weird little girls who I have the utmost respect for have been tricking grown men into believing in poltergeists and fairies for a very long, long time. And the Smirrel case, remember, happened in the middle of the Satanic Panic, which is a time when Americans especially were expecting to find evil lurking around every single corner, even in their own homes. And as in most cases of poltergeistic hoaxes, that's a word. Now the kids wouldn't even really need to work that hard to trick the adults, thanks to the power of suggestion. Highly recommend that you go back and listen to my Infield Poltergeist episode because I do share some historical examples of weird little girls, weird little kids fooling a lot of adults, and some seemingly very smart people such as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, author of Sherlock. Holmes so he writes a genius, but I don't think Sherlock would fall for the tricks that.

50:03 His author 100% fell for all right, So theory #3 Jack's disease and Folli A Familia, which is French for family Madness, which you may may seem familiar to you because it's just one word off from Folli do. I didn't practice how to say that. I did practice how to say Folli A familia. So, you know, you're welcome. I don't know how to say you're welcome in French. But you know what? If you don't speak French, but you think that I nailed it, e-mail me madamstrangevoice@gmo.com. If you do speak French and I didn't nail it, you know what? I don't need to hear it. I don't need to hear. About it so.

50:44 Let's just moving on theory #3 Jack's disease and family madness. So Jax Merle told a newspaper reporter that he had surgery to remove water from his brain in 1983 because he had been experiencing short term memory loss due to a case of meningitis in his youth. Now I'm no MD, but my research makes me wonder if it was something called normal pressure hydrocephalus, which is actually an abnormal buildup of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain and interestingly can occur as a complication of meningitis, which he specifically said that he had as a child.

51:25 Interestingly, hydrocephalus can also cause hallucinations and delusions and it accounts for 5 to 6% of dementia cases. So maybe Jack is the one who started this all. Maybe he was confusing fiction for reality. Maybe he was experiencing hallucinations that weren't there. But then you may be asking, why would his wife and kids go along with it if it was just him hallucinating? Well, and that's where follie ephemie comes in, otherwise known as shared psychosis or family madness. So a scientific paper on this phenomenon states. We describe here a case of follie ephemie involving a Why does it sound Italian when I say it? We're just going to say family.

52:19 Madness from now on, I feel, I feel silly continuing to say it. We describe your case of family madness involving a nuclear family consisting of the husband, the wife, and their three children, which is really close to 4. Just FYI for this example, the primary patient was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia with prominent delusions of persecution that were imposed upon and later shared by his family. Temporary separation decreased the intensity of shared delusions and the other family members. But also I've heard arguments that if Janet and Jack had made this up from the jump that the kids wouldn't necessarily have gone along with this ghost thing if it wasn't really happening. But I find that hard to believe.

53:07 Even if Jack started out seeing things and then it kind of spread to Janet and the kids weren't necessarily involved yet. I mean, here's here's why I find this hard to believe. The family was devoutly Catholic. Like the book. Beats us over the head about they were devoutly Catholic. And what do Catholics love more than spirits and ghosts? Nothing. You got the Holy Ghost, You got the Holy Spirit. They love them. They cannot get enough ghosts and spirits. So of I think it's completely understandable that the kids could have easily gotten wrapped up in this, even if they didn't understand that it was hallucinations or delusions. Plus if it was family madness or shared psychosis, it's not as if the kids or wife even had a choice.

53:52 That's the thing that's that's the whole thing is they don't have a choice. You're not choosing to have psychosis. So I really think that it's possible that Jack could have been patient, patient. Patient zero. I think that Jack could have been patient 0 when it came to this case. And I think he kind of like infected to kind of like take a cue from Ed Warren. I'm going to say he infected his family and even parents. You might even say that he in in, he made an infestation. His psychosis became an infestation. But not a diabolical 1. And once, once Ed and Lorraine got involved, I mean, you know, Ed just had dollar signs in his eyes the entire time he's talking to his family. So even if he thought that maybe they did need help because there's not a chance, I cannot imagine a world in which Ed Warren 100% fully believed in everything that he was doing. I think he knew exactly what he was doing. Maybe when he was older, maybe he kind of forgot, but I think especially when he was a little bit younger, he definitely knew exactly what he was doing.

55:00 And so he just had dollar signs the entire time. In his eyes, he was like, this is going to be so lucrative for me. In which case, it could have been the Warrens that were taking advantage of this family who was just in need of psychiatric help because remember, Ed Warren was quoted as saying that everybody who calls them for help is crazy. Uh huh. Yeah. Listen to this Ray Garton, who was the writer of their first book. Nope. He was the writer of the book about the Snedeker family haunting, which will be my next Warren deep dive, by the way. Stay tuned. So the guy that wrote the book about the Snedekers for Ed and Lorraine had this to say about Ed Warren in an interview with Damned Connecticut. He said, when I found that the Snedekers couldn't keep their individual stories straight, I went to Ed Warren and explained the problem.

55:53 They're crazy. He said. All the people who come to us are crazy, and that's why they come to us. Just use what you can and make the rest up. You write scary books, right? Well, make it up and make it scary. That's why we hired you. Interesting, so interesting, right? So theory #4 the Smurls were just after fame and fortune, and obviously so were the Warrens because duh. So the Smurls not only had a book written about their story in which Ed and Lorraine also got a cut of the profits from, but there was also a made for TV movie based on the Smurls story in 1991 called The Haunted, which was named after the book that was published in 1988.

56:34 And the made for TV movie was released by 20th Century Fox, in which the Warrens were the main characters. Which that was Ed's dream. I mean, well, a feature film would have been his dream, but a made for TV movie? It was close enough for Ed. Although this wasn't even the first made for TV movie about the Warrens. That honor goes to the Demon Murder case in 1983 starring Kevin Bacon and Cloris Leachman, which was based on another case file of the Warrens. The Devil Made Me Do It, which is the story of David Glaxo as dramatized in The Conjuring film of the same name. Do you like, do you think like I'm just saying, do we really think that people that are genuinely out to help people are also making book and movie deals? I just, I don't know.

57:17 I don't know. Anyway, Ed Warren made a point to say that the Smurls didn't want any dramatization of their made for TV movie. His exact quote was no Hollywood hype. I think that's Ed. Telling on himself, because he definitely did want Hollywood hype and something about Ed that I've been picking up as I'm doing all this research is just whatever he says, it's the opposite. Whatever he says, it's the opposite if he says. Oh, we don't want any Hollywood hype, He means. We do want Hollywood hype if he says there's a demon. In your house, there's not a demon in your house. It's pretty simple. Just literally take whatever he says and flip it around. That's what's the truth is going to be.

57:58 Anyway, the theory that the Smurls were purely motivated by greed is probably the simplest explanation. Occam's razor and all that, but I don't know if that's the whole story. I don't know. And I would love to hear y'all's thoughts to make sure to e-mail me madamstrangewas@gmail.com. But some of the imagery in the book is just so specific and frankly strange. Kind of dreamlike almost, one might say. Hallucinatory or delusional? Just as just off the top of my head, those. Are the words that I would use to explain the things that Jack saw. But anyway, back to fame and fortune, though, because that's the theory that we're on. It's the simplest explanation, right? But so you can tell it's not my favorite. However, I do not dismiss this theory for the reasons that I've heard a lot of people dismiss this theory for. Most people that I hear dismiss this theory argue that greed isn't a solid motivation simply because it's a lot of trouble. To go through.

58:56 For what they assume wasn't a large amount of money in the scheme of things, in the scheme of schemes, it wasn't a lot of money. So most people that I hear make this argument, they say that, you know, the Jews just wasn't worth the squeeze in this case. So why would they go through all that trouble dealing with the media circus, making themselves into the haunted succubus demon family for not a lot of money in the long run? That's what they say. They go, it's not really worth it. I don't think they did it because I didn't think it was worth it. But I think what they're missing. Is that? Here's what I think. I think they are vastly overestimating the amount of logic and discernment that people who run hoaxes and get rich quick schemes actually have. Because the thing about get rich quick schemes, which is what this would be, you know, claiming that your house is haunted, getting a book and a movie deal and getting in advance of cash.

59:57 The thing about get rich quick schemes is that. People falling for them. In this case, the Smurls don't know that it's not going to work or they wouldn't even try it. They they didn't. They don't get that the scheme part and get rich quick. Scheme means that they will in fact not. Get rich quick. OK, they don't. Understand that that's the that's the thing about get rich quick schemes. Because listen, you, dear listener, you probably know that nobody gets rich quick from a get rich quick scheme. You may think then, perhaps understandably, that most other people also think just like you do, and they know that. Get rich quick Schemes are schemes, and you do not get rich quick. But humans love instant gratification. They love instant gratification.

1:00:42 We love instant gratification, and we especially love the fantasy of our whole. Life changing for the better and the blink of an eye. Just you take a pill, you get a shot, you go out on a limb and your life is completely changed for the better. We love shortcuts. People fall. Forget rich quick schemes. Constantly, all the time, daily, hourly. Look at Las Vegas. What else is gambling other than a get rich quick scheme? Well, it's also. AI guess it's also a get poor quick scheme but no one likes. To talk about that part, they only talk about the getting rich quick, right? Or hey, Lotto tickets, that's a get rich quick scheme, one in which you are actually three times more likely to die driving on the way to the store to get the Lotto ticket then you are to actually win the Lotto.

1:01:36 I'd say those odds aren't good. I would say the juice. Isn't worth the. Squeeze there, Wouldn't you often get rich quick schemes even take more effort and more energy and time than just putting in the actual work? In which you would have ended up with more money in the long run because look, there's MLM's, multi level marketing or pyramid schemes like Lula, Roe, Herbalife, Amway, just to name a few. Where people have shelled out their life savings and worked themselves to the bone and gone into deep debt, all because they were sold this fantasy of living in luxury and making it to the top. In 2017, by the way, the FTC estimated that approximately 800,000 people were victims of pyramid schemes.

1:02:22 And that's just the number that's being reported. And that was in 2017. That's just that number is 24.6% of the population in the US who thought that they could get rich quick. 24.6. We're going to round that up 1/4. Of the population of the United States thought they could. Get rich quick and fell for a pyramid scheme or an MLM and they ended up worse than when they started. I'd say that juice wasn't worth it, wouldn't you? But they still. Did it some of them for a long time, but my absolute favorite example of someone doing way more work in the attempt of getting out of doing work. Yes, listen, this is relevant.

1:03:07 I promise you this is not an unrelated rabbit hole, but we are going down a rabbit hole, so buckle up. My favorite example of someone doing way more work in the attempt of trying to get out of doing work is Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Latter Day Saints. Now, as I always say, always, I am not a historian, I'm no Dan Carlin. I'm no Tony Soprano. But I do. A concerning amount of research into rabbit holes, as you know, and I love reading about con artists and flim flammers. And when I say Joseph Smith is definitely one of those, I am really not even putting enough emphasis. I'm not putting enough emphasis.

1:03:53 On just how much of A con artist Joseph Smith was so Joseph Smith of Mormon fame started off running an illegal but oddly not uncommon scam called treasure seeking. Meaning that he would claim that he alone was able to speak to these spirits who you can't talk to, but they also happened to secretly know the location of buried treasure and he. He could talk. To those spirits who knew where the buried treasure was and and the spirits would tell him where the buried treasure treasure was, but he would only tell you where the spirit spirits told him the treasure was if you paid him money. And then when you did pay him money and he told you where to go dig, there wouldn't be any treasure. Because that there.

1:04:36 Wasn't any treasure. That's the scam. That's the scam and people fell for it a lot. And that's probably why he was convicted of running said scam and had to flee the county he lived in. But then you Fast forward a little more after he's been trying to run scams and he's trying to make ends meet and he just doesn't want to do manual labor and he doesn't want to do normal work for a living, which I feel ya, Joe, I'm right there with you. I get it. But one day, Joseph Smith claimed that he had spoken to a very, very special spirit named Moroni who definitely knew where spirit treasure actually was. He definitely knew there was treasure there this time, for sure.

1:05:18 There was definitely treasure there this time. And he told him correctly, the location of that very, very special treasure that was definitely there. And when Joseph Smith went and dug up the place where Moroni told him to dig, it turned out that there were these gold plates in the ground, but he couldn't show anyone because you're not allowed to see them. You can't see them. No, no, he can't show you. He can't show you, No, no, he's the only one that could see the gold plates because if you look at them you will go crazy. And also he can't show them to you because he actually gave them back to Moroni, who actually isn't just a spirit, he's an Angel actually.

1:06:02 And Moroni actually told him to never show the place to anyone, even though this might make them question if the plates are real or not. This is sort of what God is going for. Does that? Does that remind you of anyone? Does that remind you of anyone? Do you see how I. Told you this isn't totally unrelated. Does it remind you of anyone finding excuses for why people can't see the evidence that he claims to have? And then he claims he's given that evidence away to some powerful person who will never share it with anyone. If you zoned out earlier, I'm talking about Ed Warren with this Smurl case that we're talking about right now because Ed Warren specifically said he had evidence on the case, but he just didn't remember where he gave it. He's just a baby.

1:06:50 He doesn't remember. Oh, he doesn't know. Where did the where did the evidence go? He doesn't know it's gone. Someone else has it. He comes up with a bunch of excuses as to why he can't show anyone the evidence because there is no evidence. It's almost like scammers are all using this spoken playbook. Honestly, it's wild. And you know, apologies, apologies, apologies to any of my Mormon listeners, but I doubt that I have any of those. But if you are Mormon, I would love to hear your thoughts. E-mail me madamstrangeways@gmail.com All to say, the effort that old Joe Smith went to in order to continue his scheme in order to avoid having to do actual work for a living is truly, honestly mind boggling. The the I haven't even gone into. I'm not even getting into all the things that he had to do there.

1:07:41 He didn't just stop there. He went through a lot of effort, made-up a. Bunch of stuff. And honestly, since he died at the hands of an angry mob because of Mormonism, because of the gold plates that he supposedly found. I would say that this probably wasn't worth the squeeze. This juice was not worth the squeeze. Wouldn't you say that in hindsight? So I don't think that we can. Discount the theory that the Smurls were just greedy purely because we don't feel that the ROI on their scam was good enough. I mean especially consider that by that point the warrants had already been portrayed in one made for TV movie that the Smurls almost definitely had watched because there was limited television channels and limited options for entertainment in 1986.

1:08:32 So just remember that made for TV movies were a big deal. It was on normal prime time television, not cable. So you know, like just keep this in mind that the Warrens had a had a history of getting books published and being on made for TV and they were probably on the news and they saw an opportunity. I think it's completely possible, and I genuinely don't know that that is the entire explanation for this case. But I also don't like when people discount it just because it seemed they personally think that it would be too much work for not enough payout. Like yeah but you wouldn't run this scam like you wouldn't do this in the 1st place. So let's not put ourselves in those shoes. So we will just literally never know exactly what happened. But those are my main 4 theories. I would love to hear if you have other theories. Like I said, you can do a little column A, a little column BI would love to hear it.

1:09:28 I really want to hear your thoughts, so leave a comment on Spotify or e-mail me about strangers@gmail.com. But I will leave you with this final little nugget of strangeness that I was delighted to unearth. Somewhat like. You might say some golden plates, although I do have evidence that I unearthed this. And Lorraine's grandson, Chris Mckinnell, is mentioned in the haunted book as having taken part in the investigation. So when I saw him doing a TikTok live the other day, you know, I had to join and there weren't that many people. So I was like, well, I got to shoot my shot. So I asked him a question about the Smurls. I asked what was his most memorable experience with the Smurls. I think that's a fair question because he wasn't a huge part of the book, but he was in the book a little bit. And I didn't mention that in the story because there's already so many moving parts.

1:10:20 OK, but he was he was following in his. Grandparents footsteps, which you'll see. I was really not prepared for the answer that I got. You know, he, he said. You know, Oh, he repeated my question. Oh, you know, what was my most memorable experience with the Smurls? Well, Janet Smerl told me that she had gone to the doctor and that they had discovered that she had a partially digested remnant of a twin inside her body. What do you mean? What are you talking about? I was expecting him to say something. About the house, or like the demon or a succubus or an incubus. I was expecting something in the house. Instead he tells me that Janet Smirrell ate her twin in the womb.

1:11:12 And honestly, I feel like there could be some truth to it because they did have twins. Like the the Smirrels do have a do have twin daughters. I feel like it's completely honestly, this is the least strange thing in this story, but also it I my jaw dropped. I was like I furiously was screened recording right before he said this. I didn't think he was going to answer me so fast. He answered me like within seconds of me asking the question. So I immediately started screen recording and I'm so glad that I did because I have evidence that he said this. This is insane. I've never heard this before. Genuinely, that was the first thing that he said. Then he kind of went on to say, oh, and I was. You know, levitated off the floor, but luckily people grabbed me by my feet and my hands and pulled me back to the ground.

1:11:58 Sir, you shouldn't have. You should have led with that one. Because I don't care about that now. Because you have just told me that Janet Smrol ate her twin in the womb and there's remnants of said twin in her body. Come on. And let me tell you, that is not in the book. I even went back through the book. I was like, did I completely miss this part in the book? Is he telling me something new? Yeah, it's it's new. It's not in the book. It might not be totally new to everybody. Have you heard this before? Have you heard that Janet Smirrel ate her twin in the womb? I know that's not the actual. I know that's not the actual science, but it's just funny to say. Have you heard this?

1:12:41 Is this news? Have you heard it before? Let me know Madam strangeways@gmail.com Anything. That's the final, final little nugget that I'll leave you with. But what do you think about the smol case? Were the Smols being totally genuine? Were they being a little bit genuine? Were they being not genuine at all? Perhaps. Would the Warrens have even cared one way or the other whether or not they were being genuine? I think that's really, honestly, that's the bigger question. Do they care? Did Jack Smirrell's medical condition play into the story at all? Or were any or all of the four daughters in the home? Just playing Poltergeist because they're weird little girls or. Since this all happened so close to Scranton, PA, was the real cause behind the Smirrell haunting? Perhaps the Scranton Strangler?

1:13:32 All along, Yep, I waited. I waited 2 full episodes to really make an office joke, so you're welcome. Let me know your thoughts on the story madamstrangeways@gmail.com or you can leave me a message on Spotify. I would also love to hear from you on social media. You can follow me on Instagram and on Tiktok and I look forward to seeing you soon. So thank you so much for joining me for yet another episode of Madam Strangeways.

1:14:13 Thank you for joining me for more true strange stories of the unexplained. Remember that you can feel afraid and not be in danger. You're safe here with me, probably. Please follow the podcast, leave a rating on Spotify or Apple, or tell your friends and foes about the show. It would mean the world to me. The underworld, obviously, I mean, come on. Was that not? Was that not clear? Madam Strange Ways is produced and narrated by me. Madam Strange Ways theme music is by marina.ryan@marinamakes.co. Cover art is by Andrea Chisel Roldan at Cult of Teddy on Instagram.

1:14:56 You can submit your own true strange story at madamstrangeways.com or e-mail it to madamstrangeways@gmail.com. See you soon, she said ominously. Found out was in an obvious place. Or her spoons. I believe all her spoons were taken out of her drawer. And she was, you know, blaming the kids, saying you guys are digging in the yard, you're taking all my spoons.

1:15:39 But then she never realized that all her spoons were gone, so her spoon started showing up a couple at a time. It took us several days for her, all her spoons to come back. Very, you know, very par for the course really. It has very common for this. It has taken sheets and towels and baking pans, household items. It takes it. Not that it's expensive or just.